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Jamie Dimon Testifies in Washington - Rolling Commentary

June 19, 2012
[ by Howard Haykin ] Jamie Dimon was back in the hot seat, ready to testify before the House Committee on Financial Services.  Having practiced the prior week with the Senate's counterpart, the JPMorgan Chase Chairman and CEO probably felt well-prepared.  Of course, naysayers said that in the House, Mr. Dimon would be facing a more feisty panel, who would not be so solicitous with him. Jamie Dimon appeared along with various regulators - the SEC, FINRA and NYSE - with Nasdaq CEO Bob Greifeld's Nasdaq noticably absent.  The regulators testified ahead of Mr. Dimon.  While Mr. Dimon apologized for the loss and poor risk management at the Senate hearing, he resolutely defended his firm, and faced relatively few tough questions about how JPMorgan failed to check a mushrooming bet that ultimately soured. Here is DealBook's live blog coverage of the hearing. Start at bottom for beginning of the testimony. 1:29 P.M.  Position Limits. 1)  Rep. Brad Miller (D-NC) asks Mr. Dimon about trading position limits.  Mr. Dimon says that they were too high for the chief investment office, and that they should have been much lower. 2) Mr. Miller then references a Bloomberg News article that cites trading limits from some time ago, which Mr. Dimon doesn’t recall reading. 1:22 P.M. Hedging or Proprietary Trading, Redux. Is there a bright line between hedging and proprietary trading?  Mr. Dimon is asked.  "I wouldn’t have set it up as proprietary versus hedging," the executive responds.  He has consistently argued that it’s a more complicated issue. The lawmaker in charge of questioning now then asks Mr. Dimon if he supported Dodd-Frank.  "It’s a tough question," Mr. Dimon responds - JPMorgan has supported parts of the legislation, but later says that some of it needs to be modified. 1:20 P.M. 'Regulation Is Not Binary'. Regulation isn’t simply an either-or proposition, Mr. Dimon says.  It’s a complicated matter and should be treated as such.  It’s a sentiment that he had already voiced during the Senate hearing. 1:17 P.M. Wall Street Culture and Pay. Rep. Ruben Hinojosa, (D-TX) says that there needs to be an evaluation of not only Wall Street regulations, but also the financial industry’s culture.  "There should have been major self-reflection," the lawmaker says, before asking whether JPMorgan’s compensation practices contributed to the trading losses.  Mr. Dimon starts off defending Wall Street, saying that "there are people you can trust."  He adds, "It’s not just financial results that drive compensations at JPMorgan."  When pressed on the issue of Wall Street culture, Mr. Dimon says that there are some problems, but that such criticism shouldn’t tar all of the financial industry. 1:14 P.M. Lessons Learned. Rep. Nan Hayworth, (R-NY) asks whether there are lessons that can be drawn from the trading blow-up.  Mr. Dimon says it illustrates the importance of a strong and independent risk committee, which is sometimes tasked with preventing management from tripping itself up. Here, it appears that the committee initially made the same mistakes as executive, he says.  "You can’t be complacent about risks,"” he says. 1:10 P.M. Dimon and Capuano in Agreement, Up to a Point. Rep. Michael Capuano (D-MA makes an unusual move - agreeing with Dimon on a couple of matters:  (i) JPMorgan not being too big to fail, and (ii) the executive not simply seeking "the least-regulated regime."  The point is, Mr. Capuano still sees some loopholes that need closing, and wonders whether Dimon agrees. Sen. Capuano then turns to the CFTC and its lower budget, and presses Mr. Dimon into offering an opinion on the shrinking regulator. Dimon doesn't take the bait, saying it’s up to Congress to determine whether that’s appropriate. 1:02 P.M. The Regulatory 'Charade'. Rep. Scott Garrett (R-NJ) is up now, and asks if "there’s a charade" before the American public that regulators are able to prevent this kind of mistake.  Mr. Dimon says that regulators still serve a valuable role. 1:00 P.M. Back to the 'London Loophole'. Rep. Gregory Meeks (D-NY) returns to the matter of the "London loophole."  Mr. Dimon again raises his objection to anything that disadvantages American banks against foreign competition.  If JPMorgan can’t offer a competitive bid on an interest rate product compared to Deutsche Bank, it will hurt the client and hurt the American banking sector.  And at some point, maybe it would force wholesale moves to foreign jurisdictions. 12:55 P.M. The Volcker Rule and Risk. A Republican lawmaker asks Mr. Dimon about the Volcker Rule from an interesting angle: If the proposal disallowed "portfolio hedging," a broader move that Mr. Dimon favors but critics say is a workaround against proprietary trading, would it actually increase risk in the banking system? The JPMorgan chief says, "I’d love to answer the question, but I don’t know the answer." 12:47 P.M. Back to Too Big to Fail. Rep. Stephen Lynch (D-MA) moves on, asking about what he says is JPMorgan’s inarguable status as a "too big to fail" institution. Could other banks have survived a mistake of this size?  "Why should we allow you to be so big?" he asks.  Mr. Dimon answers that banks should only take risks commensurate to their size.  JPMorgan’s size allowed us to "do the things you wanted us to do." It kept lending.  "We try to be a conservative company that does the right thing," he says. 12:42 P.M. Internal Squabbling. Rep. Lynch starts asking his question — but is cut off by Rep. Bachus, who objects to what he thinks is criticism of his refusal to swear in Mr. Dimon.  Cue the bickering over precedent of witnesses not being sworn in.  It goes on for a couple of minutes and is probably amusing only to a handful of people. 12:42 P.M. The New York Fed. Mr. Dimon is asked by another lawmaker about his position as a member of the board of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.  It has been the subject of criticism, with some critics asking whether it creates undue influence on the regulator. Mr. Dimon responds that he doesn’t need to be on the board, but thinks someone from the industry can provide valuable advice to the New York Fed. 12:39 P.M. Gambling or Investing? Rep. Gary Ackerman (D-NY) asks about the difference between gambling and investing.  He earns a few chuckles for noting that most of his investment efforts have led to losses, basically tantamount to gambling. Mr. Dimon offers to provide better investment advice.  But Rep. Ackerman moves on to his main question: Were the chief investment office trades gambling? Were they hedges, or were they bets? 12:35 P.M. Limiting Concentration Risk. Mr. Dimon is asked about how other market participants were able to notice the trading activity of JPMorgan’s London desk and move against it. Would it make sense to re-evaluate the firm’s concentration of risk, especially for something illiquid like the chief investment office’s bad bet? Mr. Dimon says that there should be specific limits on the types of trades that went south.  In this case, however, not enough limits were erected. 12:30 P.M. A Hypothetical. A lawmaker asks Mr. Dimon, if no trading were done at all at the bank, would the losses have been avoided?  Mr. Dimon: Yes. If banks were ran as a utility, ceding competition to Europe and removing risk, would  losses have been prevented?   Mr. Dimon: Yes. 12:25 P.M. The Costs of Managing Risk. When queried about what JPMorgan is doing in the face of potential rising rates, Mr. Dimon says that the firm would benefit if that were the case.  He emphasizes that the protection costs money.  "It probably cost us over $1 billion a year to benefit from rising rates," he says.  But he thinks it’s in the best interests of the company. 12:22 P.M. Asking About Delays. Rep. Maloney asks about what was behind the delay between the start of losses and senior management’s taking action. Mr. Dimon says that at first, executives thought that the losses in early April were "an aberrational thing" - until they began mounting late that month. At that point, JPMorgan brought in experts who began digging deeper. Rep. Carolyn Maloney (D-NY) then asks about the delay between the start of the losses and disclosure to regulators.  The banking executive says there wasn’t any, and again brings up the idea of JPMorgan having an “open kimono” attitude with regulators. In other words, being forthcoming in disclosing matters. 12:17 P.M. London Calling. Rep. Maloney prefaces her remarks by praising Mr. Dimon as an employer of many constituents.  And then she pivots by asking about why the CIO's s losses took place in its London location.  What is it about the financial regulations that seems to lead to blow-ups like JPMorgan’s, the AIG's and others over there? Mr. Dimon doesn’t really answer the question, saying that JPMorgan’s CIO does most of its business in New York, and that its London activities are in service of European clients. 12:14 P.M. A Trillion-Dollar Loss? Not Likely Rep. Sean Duffy (R-WI) Duffy asks if it’s possible for JPMorgan to suffer a trillion-dollar loss.  Mr. Dimon responds that it would only be possible if the Earth were struck by the moon, prompting laughs from the gallery. 12:12 P.M. Regulation and Too Big to Fail. Mr. Dimon is asked by Rep. Duffy, Republican of Wisconsin, about whether regulators can adequately police a bank as big as JPMorgan.  The executive responds that taxpayers should not have to pay for a failing bank.  And he believes that regulators can adequately keep tabs on an institution as big as JPMorgan.  He argues that current regulations are tougher than elsewhere, keeping most banks better adequately capitalized than competitors overseas. 12:08 P.M. 'Best, Widest, Deepest' Markets. Looking intense, Mr. Dimon says that the focus of regulation should be on keeping the U.S. as the "best, widest, deepest" markets in the world, and an incredible "business machine."  It’s a sentiment he expressed during the Senate hearings last week. 12:07 P.M. JPMorgan and Dodd-Frank. Rep. Maxine Waters (D-CA) leads off her 5 minutes of questions with criticism of JPMorgan’s opposition to elements of the Dodd-Frank financial regulation overhaul.  "I’m afraid that we don’t have your support" when it comes to measures that could prevent a future financial crisis, the lawmaker says.  Mr. Dimon says at one point that lobbying is a constitutional right, and that "we have a right to be heard." 12:00 P.M. A Change in Risk Models. Mr. Dimon is asked about why the firm’s risk models were modified earlier this year, and why the move wasn’t disclosed.  He answers that the firm has a number of models. With regards to the change for the unit behind the trading losses, the CIO, he says that they believed that the model worked.  Until it appeared that the model didn’t. 12:00 P.M. Frank Takes the Stage. Rep. Barney Frank (D-MA) is up, and begins by asking about the CFTC and its financing levels.  Rep. Frank remains incredulous at what he believes is the whittling away of the agency.  The lawmaker also questions Dimon about JPMorgan’s stance on limiting the scope of regulation of derivatives trading, and of financial industry rules over all.  He uses the word "disappointed" a lot and at one point accuses the executive of filibustering.  Rep. Frank then moves to a question about clawing back compensation.  Specifically, would Mr. Dimon’s pay be subject to such a move?  The JPMorgan chief says that’s up to his board. 11:55 A.M. Guessing the European End Game. How will the euro zone issue be resolved?  Mr. Dimon says that he thinks the Continent’s political leaders have the will, though they have to grapple with 17 parliaments involved in the decision-making.  He adds that JPMorgan economists believe that Italy and Spain will be the firewall. 11:51 A.M. Leading Off With Europe. The first questioner asks, "What do you think is going to be the bigger story for the financial industry 2 years from now, the trading losses or the euro zone?" Mr. Dimon responds, "Sorry to take up so much time with the trading loss."  He emphasizes that the European fiscal crisis is a much bigger problem, something that occupies more of his time. And then he begins to explain his views of the European situation. 11:49 A.M. Not Under Oath. Mr. Dimon has finished his remarks, but one legislator would like to put the banking chief under oath.  Rep. Spencer Bachus (R-AL) declines to do so.  The member objects, but the questions proceed. 11:48 A.M. 'Focused on Our Clients'. More from Mr. Dimon’s prepared remarks.  He emphasizes the firm’s strength and willingness to lend after the financial crisis, even after other firms were weakened by the market turmoil. 11:45 A.M. Sticking to the Script. Mr. Dimon opens with prepared remarks that match his testimony in the Senate hearing last week.  While he apologizes for the losses, he emphasizes it did not hurt taxpayers or customers. "We believe this to be an isolated event." For further details, go to: [Dealbook, 6/169/12].